senator ayotte can adopt what her constituents want, maybe the same thing will happen to her. the reason people went and voted for them is because they expected you to go to washington and vote on behalf of those that voted for you in the first place. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. body snatchers. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. invasion of the body snatchers. that's what this is like. we tried to fathom who was with us and who is one of them. we can't tell, can we? how do we tell when someone has gone over to the other side? when does it happen, this radicalization process? where does it happen?

over in russia somewhere? back in cambridge when some guy's surfing the internet? no wonder we're trying to figure out these two brothers. the living one says it all happened on the internet. it was all about religion. and nobody was helping them. no one was helping them in their radicalization or in their bomb building and their getting together with other weapons. my question is how they crossed the line between having an attitude and deciding to go kill as many people as they could. what makes an innocent person into a cold-blooded killer? a young militant into a murderer? you would think it would take some very bad experiences. something bad enough to declare war on your fellow humanity. ask yourself, what would have to happen to you to let you go out on a monday and kill a bunch of americans then head back to the dormitory tuesday night to hang out with another bunch of americans? pete williams is nbc's chief correspondent. pete, thank you for joining us. i used a movie reference there to try to figure out this radicalization thing. of course, we're learning now a bit about our surveillance. what have we learned in the last

day about what we knew in our agencies that we didn't know before? >> well, this has raised a question, i think there's a couple of ways to look at this, chris. one is what the fbi and the cia and the government did. then the second question is, should they have done more? do they have enough legal authority to do more? but in terms of what they did, here's the way it's described to us. the russians come to the fbi in early 2011 and say we think that tamerlan tsarnaev, the older one, and his mother are becoming radicalized. they're coming to russia. we want to know more about them. so the fbi looks through its terrorism databases. doesn't find anything. looks to see if the phone numbers that he has are being called by other terrorists. looks for terrorism connections. finds nothing. goes to the house. interviews tamerlan and the family. comes up with nothing. goes back to the russians and says, you know, we got nothing here. what else do you have? the russians don't respond. the fbi a second time asks them for something.

then in september of 2011 the russians make exactly the same request, but this time they go to the cia. perhaps thinking they'll get a different response. the cia sends that over to the fbi. the fbi says we've already looked into this. there isn't anything. but, again, they say they asked the russians what more do you have? give us more, we'll chase it down. again, they say, the russians don't respond. as a result of these two requests to the fbi and cia, his name did go into a terrorism database. the sort of master terrorism tip database. so that when he did fly to moscow last january, the government knew about that. but it didn't take any action either when he left or when he came back because the case was considered closed. so that's what they did. now, here's the policy question.

many members of congress are saying, well, should there have been some ways to follow up? for example, some way to sort of yellow flag him and maybe look -- continue to look at what he's posting on his social media site, which when he returns from russia, takes a very strong turn toward radicalization with, you know, violent jihadist material on his website. should that have required another look? that's what they're asking. you know, it's a reasonable question. it's a good question. it's also a difficult one. because the fbi gets something like 20,000 of these tips a year from foreign governments to check out people in the u.s. the average agent who's assigned to these cases gets 100 of these a week. so how do you prioritize and decide which ones are the right ones? but it does seem to me these are the questions that members of congress are understandably asking. >> well, let's go through it again. the fbi said they didn't know

tamerlan left the country in 2012 but secretary of homeland security janet napolitano yesterday told u.s. senators that her department did. let's watch her testimony. >> was your department aware of his travels to russia, and if you weren't, the reason? >> yes, the system pinged when he was leaving the united states. by the time he returned, all investigations had been -- the matter had been closed. >> that discrepancy raised an issue for some republicans, including congressman michael mccaul, chairman of the homeland security committee. let's listen to him. >> when i was briefed by the fbi, they told me they had no knowledge of his overseas trip to the chechen region. when, in fact, the secretary then testifies and says that they got pinged, that there was a flag that went up that did indicate that he was traveling to russia and to the chechen region. you know, we talked a lot about connecting the dots and stove pipes after 9/11. and here we are 12 years later, and the fact remains that it's still not -- it's not working. >> pete, this is so difficult because we're looking for institutional blame here. i understand how the political game is played, if you will. even when the stakes are this

high, it's still somewhat of a contest. but i am fascinated, maybe this isn't your cantor, maybe you're not covering this, how could the fbi or the department of homeland security determine when a person transited across the rubicon from someone with very hot ideas, very jihadist views, into someone who is building bombs? >> well -- >> there's no evidence of anything to do with that in terms of their traffic back and forth to russia. they weren't carrying any contraband. there was no evidence of them attempting to get help, apparently not, was there, of them trying to get help to build a bomb? the violence they caused, the killing is why we're talking about them. not their attitudes. i guess it's hard to figure out the genesis of those decisions to switch from an attitude to a killing plot. >> well, you know, that's exactly what senator angus king was saying this morning, which is, you're looking for tipoffs, based on, in essence, material that's covered by the first

amendment. there's nothing criminal about posting on your website distasteful things that glorify jihad. but here is an issue, though. i guess that some members are asking about. if you have a person who's in this -- in your database, you know, is there -- should there be some way to, for example, forget tamerlan for a second. and look at, instead, think about this from the anwr awlaki model where the united states began to focus on him as a person who was influential to terrorists in this country. so should there be a broader list of people like him? some of whom are, you know, espousers of these radical violent statements. tamerlan was posting some of this material on his website. should they have been looking at it from the other end? here's a list of people that we think are -- are, you know, dangerous out there on the internet. let's watch and see who comes and downloads that. again, that is a very difficult thing to do. and it is protected speech. >> yeah.

>> the other thing is, these are u.s. persons. so it does to some extent limit legally what the government can do to watch what they're reading. >> and still it would come down to an interview. as you were pointing out and others have pointed out in the last few days, just the process of going around, the fbi, asking to interview someone is an aggressive step. and it can be considered to be a violation of their rights. right? you can't just keep interviewing people. isn't that what the fbi was saying? >> well, look, anybody can knock on your door and -- and want to talk to you. you don't have to talk to them. but i don't think it's a violation -- i don't think anyone would say it's a violation of your rights if the irs knocks on your door and says, chris, let's have a chat. you can say no. you can say no to the police if they just want to chat with you. they don't need a warrant to do that. you know, the -- they can certainly have said no, they did talk to the fbi, it was entirely voluntary. so i think more is the question of follow-up. the more -- the more troubling things in his record seem to be when he comes back from russia and he starts to post these more aggressively violent things on his social media. >> yeah.

>> should that have raised a red flag? is there any way to legally look at that? and how do you sort of focus in on the ones that are potentially the troublemakers? hard questions. >> it gets right into your mind. it's not even your behavior. thank you so much, pete williams, as always. u.s. congressman william keith kchl keeting represents parts of boston. he's a mb of the homeland security committee. mr. keating, thanks for joining us. as a political figure watching this whole thing and with your oversight what have you come up with? what we're looking at here, the role of the fbi, role of the homeland security department and their stovepiping, perhaps, keeping interest separate from each other. what do you think you see here so far? >> there's been nothing in any briefing and nothing in any conversation that hasn't said the fbi hasn't done their job. they played -- they played it by the book. there's no doubt about that. the question we're going to have as we develop more information on this incidence and look at the broader picture here in congress is, do we change the book. that remains an open question. how far can we go in some of these issues? and we're going to be looking at that.

we're going to be -- as they deal with the trace evidence at the scene and processing investigation, look at his computer records, look at his associates, maybe travel, and see what happened in the six months he's away, the investigators will do their job. but in congress we want to see what can be done on the broader scale to make sure that the communication is there. and to make sure that we're doing all we can. that's why one of my staff people in the foreign affairs committee is going to russia the end of this week. we're going to talk to russian staff people there, russian officials, so that we can determine if we can use their knowledge better. because one of the things that's clear that you just described was the lack of communication between russia and the u.s. and that's the one thing that is clear, wasn't as full as it should have been. so we're going to go there and see if there's -- check their policy and assess the country that's very close vested about information can, indeed, begin to share things with us. now, that region, the caucasus

region is where terrorists are trained, recruited, educated. that's a real area. russia is concerned about that area as well. we have that common interest that we can build on. certainly that was an issue with our committee before. because we're going to be withdrawing from afghanistan, going through some of that region, which might incite more terrorist activity. >> you're a democrat. here's what the republicans are saying today. they're also -- some of them are trying to pin the blame on the obama administration here. here's senator lindsey graham trying to, as usual, tying it to benghazi to make the point the administration is letting its guard down. he's always talking about benghazi. now he's tying it to boston with benghazi. this has become almost an m.o. with him. let's watch. >> something's not right here. i don't want to be judgmental, but i want to make sure that we're safe. >> yeah. >> between benghazi and boston, we're going backward in national security. this adds administration is letting its guard down and it's beginning to show. >> well, more aggressive and more partisan still is

republican congressman tom cotton today. he went further. he compared the record of the last four years under president obama negatively to that of president george w. bush. interesting choice there. let's listen to his conclusion. >> in barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the united states under barack obama. the boston marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the times square bomber, the ft. hood shooter, and in my own state, the little rock recruiting office shooter. in over seven years after 9/11, under george w. bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the united states? zero! we need to ask why is the obama administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the united states. >> well, that's the strangest presentation i've ever heard on this show in all the years i've been doing it. we had no terrorist reach our shores under the george w. bush administration. check back to 9/11.

even in the craziest world how can you compare what happened to us on 9/11, four airplanes being hijacked and all those thousands of people being killed to all these other cases he mentions. this guy cotton i hope i never hear of again. he's not worth listening to. this guy is talking about home grown people. not got to the united states. he's acting like they snuck in the border. they're here. that's one thing we have to focus on. that's my question to you, congressman keating. this tricky part here, it's one thing to uncover a sleeper cell, which is somewhat connected to, say, al qaeda. how do you uncover a mindset that's pick up over the internet? how do you find the danger in the individual lone wolf? >> i think we can go in that regard. but i'm not going to not address another issue. a few minutes -- it was actually a short period of time after the bombing, my phone rang. and it was the white house staff calling me, saying as they did other boston officials, the full assets of the united states of america are there to help you. you just came from boston, chris. this is not a

democratic/republican issue. to bring the president into this is really -- this isn't the right time to do it. >> i know. >> it's really disingenuous. you know, back to your question, we will learn a lot. it's been a progression. we have made such progress in the last ten years. i had a field hearing in homeland with my chair, mr. mccaul, in boston looking at where we've been in the last ten years. it's one of the best centers, anti-terrorist centers in the country. they do their job every day. we have improved dramatically. what we have to address is, it's harder. we're under greater risk from these homegrown and domestic terrorists. >> yeah. it's common sense. >> the risk has gotten worse. that's what we have to acknowledge. we still face risks living in this country. we have to do our best to minimize it. we don't do that by playing politics or assessing blame. >> i agree. >> we do it by working together just the way the law enforcement officials did in boston last week. >> i agree there.

people like na nad nidal hasan are hard to detect. not everyone goes shouting from a rooftop they'll become a jihadist. that's not the way it works. coming up, gun safety advocates were furious when the senate voted against better background checks. but can they turn their anger into votes? that's the key question. can they punish those senators who went the other way on the issue when the voting comes around next november? look who's talking. today, it's hillary clinton's first day on the big money lecture circuit. there she is. everyone will be listening for clues as to whether she's running for president in 2016. i think she is. but only she knows. plus, on the eve of the opening of the george w. bush presidential library in dallas, isn't there an irony in having him have a library? the former president says his relationship with dick cheney is cordial. hmm. think it's got something to do with dick cheney manipulating him into a hard, unnecessary war? you think? president obama's fail safe method of making sure his daughters don't get tattoos. this is really funny. that's where it belongs. in the side show. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] with free package pickup

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americans don't seem to like the congressional leadership up there. a new gallup poll finds all four leaders in congress are unpopular. senate republican leader mcmcconnell, 34% have a negative opinion of him. 26% give him thumb's up. he's on the wrong side of history. senate majority leader harry reid 38% negative, 27% positive. house speaker john boehner is up -- he's disliked by 41%, liked by just 31. the least liked leader in congress, unfortunately, i think, is nancy pelosi. the minority leader has a 48% negative rating compared to a 31% positive. it's really no surprise when polls consistently show that favorability of congress as a whole is somewhere around 12%. so they're all leading the pack. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." if there was any question senators who voted against background checks would be held

accountable in 2014, new radio ads from gabrielle giffords' gun safety group should erase any doubt. part of the ad they're using against senate minority leader mitch mcconnell, love this one, up for re-election in 2014. >> we watched. >> he fired 154 shots. >> we listened. >> gunned down 20 children in under five minutes. >> we felt it. newtown. but senator mcconnell won't listen to us. 82% of kentuckians support universal background checks. but senator mcconnell voted against them. mcconnell opposed common sense checks to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, written by a republican and a democrat. supported by law enforcement officers. it was a common sense plan, but senator mcconnell ignored the will of the people. >> and democrats who voted against background checks or better background checks for gun buyers are hardly off the hook. the progressive change campaign committee ran this ad in seven newspapers across montana on sunday. this sunday.

featuring local gun owners angry about senator max baucus' vote. joining me right now, david axelrod, former obama senior adviser. msnb political analyst and republican strategist john feehery. somehow i have a different attitude towards the republicans and the democrats who voted on this thing. i don't know why it is because i'm not always partisan. but i really do have a problem with mitch mcconnell. i would like to see him get stung hard on this one. why do i think like that? because he tends to be an s.o.b. generally? does anybody like that guy? >> you don't like mr. mcconnell but i like him. >> you like mr. mcconnell. >> i don't think this is going to hurt him. >> you're in the minority. >> nobody likes him. >> he's the least popular incumbent running for re-election right now. >> yeah. >> i will say this, chris. his concern right now is not about a general election. it's about a primary.

until the primary -- we'll see what happens after. but until primary filing is done, he's looking over his right shoulder. and he doesn't really care about these ads. now, i applaud what they're doing because i think until people believe that they may lose their seats because of these votes, they're going to continue to knuckle under to the nra. for example, they're running ads against kelly ayotte in new hampshire where i think it can be terribly damaging to her. she's lost ten points or more in her favorable rating -- >> is that a pro gun or middle of the road gun state? >> think about it, the southern half of that state is in the boston media market. >> i know. >> i think it's more and more becoming -- >> is that a live free or die state in terms of guns? >> i think it is. especially in a republican primary. >> she's not -- but a general election. >> 2016 when she's up again, a lot of water is going to be under the bridge. >> isn't it the smart move if you're going to shoot at somebody, politically kill them, pick people that are really in trouble. if you knock them off by pushing them a couple inches over you can take credit.

why not go after max baucus who's not running gun? why would you go after -- >> everyone knows that vote helped max baucus. >> you know the politics of this. heidi heidkamp is taking a lot of heat. you're virginal politically. just get in office. democrat winning in a red state. don't make your first big vote against what seems to be the local attitude. i can understand -- >> i understand. i think, you know, politicians act like politicians. then we're shocked about that. they're politicians. they want to win -- >> they're also supposed to represent their states. >> they are supposed to represent their states. as you can see from that kentucky poll on background checks, there's a -- you know, there's just abject fear of the nra.

so people have to begin to feel -- >> for heidi heidkamp it's going to be awfully hard to beat her. she's with the nra. >> you think it was a smart vote. >> very smart vote. >> on immigration, this is tricky for all kinds of reasons. this ad by americans for conservative direction. it's not what it sounds like. it's a moderate approach. pushing the rubio approach. if you wanted another example of how the gop establishment is fully behind immigration reform, it's this ad. let's watch it. this is pro-immigration reform. >> anyone who thinks what we have now on immigration is not a problem is fooling themselves. what we have in place today is de facto amnesty. >> conservative leaders have a plan. the toughest enforcement measure in the history of the united states. >> they have to pass the background check. they have to be able to pay the registration fee. they have to pay a fine. >> border security on steroids. tough border triggers. and no giveaways for lawbreakers. >> no federal benefits, no food stamps, no welfare, no obama care. they have to prove they're gainfully employed. >> bold. very conservative.

a tough line on immigration. >> it puts in place the toughest enforcement measures in the history of the united states. potentially in the world. >> so they're going to deny people, something he wanted to deny the whole country. anyway, i think it's very nervy. >> i think -- >> what do you think? >> the ad was immediately denounced by erick ericson and the right in the republican party. because they think -- >> that's the right wing zoo. >> yes, but they have a bit of a civil war here. >> i think it is. let's talk about that civil war. what happens if you have a good, tough bill which has got teeth in it, no easy rides, no amnesty, just a tough thing. if you want to become an american you got to sweat it, right? what's wrong with that politically for your party? >> nothing except for the fact it's going to be hard to get it out of the house. we have to get 70, 75 votes for it out of the senate to have enough momentum to get it to the house. 80 people voting against any comprehensive immigration bill no matter what it did. >> they like what we got?

>> they like what they got and they want to be -- >> that's the alternative. >> they're worried about primaries. for republicans they've got to find a bipartisan path through the house and have the majority of republicans vote for it. that's going to be hard. rubio -- >> can i ask you a question? would it be god good for america if the 11 million people that are here and have been here building families and building lives and law-abiding, is it good for america if they find some home of becoming one of us officially? >> is that a rhetorical question? >> i'm not getting an answer. >> it's also better for the republican. the quicker they get up to the middle class -- >> is it also good we have a real border we enforce? >> without question. >> the president feels that way as well. >> you can't hire somebody illegally? can you both agree with that? businesses shouldn't be able to hire people illegally? >> this is a microcosm. >> don't they want the cheap labor?

>> good business wants good workers to work hard. that's what business really wants. >> we're going to get an immigration bill, yes or no? >> paul ryan coming out this weekend i thought was a big move. >> ryan/rubio is a big push. >> marco rubio has done a master job. the business community wants this as does the christian conservatives. >> is it better for obama to hang back on this or go forward. >> hang back. >> i agree with that. this is a microcosm of the problem for the republican party. they have to decide whether they want to be a regional ideological party. >> anglo. >> old white party. or whether they want to be a national party. >> what we want to be is we want to be a winning party. i think this helps us. >> you're the new breed. thank you, david axelrod. thank you, john feehery. reasonable man this week. next, president obama's foolproof way to ensure his daughters don't get tattoos. by the way, every father should watch this. it might just work. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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back to "hardball." now to the "side show." when it was discovered the two suspects in the attacks of the boston marathon were from chechnya, some unexpected confusion ensued. it turns out that some people were mixing up chechnya with the czech republic. you know, where czechs come from. a vastly different country almost 2,000 miles away from chechnya. i have no idea how someone can make that error. the czech republic's ambassador to these united states stepped in. >> the czech republic is a european country. it's a different thing that chechnya. obviously we have been seeing things on the social media that people are mixing the czech republic and chechnya. i wish to stress this is the czech republic, a country of central europe, and europe nato ally. >> just goes to show, never google thy self. take a look at the headline from

a polish news website featuring a shot of sarah palin. the headline translates to "let's burn prague." sarah palin calls for the invasion of the czech rebub lick. before you think the worst here's the source for that report. the daily currant. a satirical news website here in the u.s. no, palin didn't say that. for a brief period some people in poland thought she did. shows what they think of her. next, parenting tips from president obama. here he is with nbc's savannah guthrie on a plan to get his daughters thinking twice before gets any tats. >> what we've said to the girls is, if you guys ever decide you're going to get a tattoo, then mommy and me will get the exact same tattoo. in the same place. and we'll go on youtube and show it off as a family tattoo. our thinking is that might dissuade them from thinking that somehow that's a good way to rebel. >> sounds promising. i'm not that optimistic. next, new jersey governor chris christie gets fact checked after something he said to a 4-year-old at a town hall. let's look. >> what's your favorite tv show?

>> what's my favorite tv show? okay. i like to watch sports on tv. so that's what i watch most of the time. so how about my favorite station is espn? what's your favorite tv show? >> scooby doo. >> how old are you? >> 4. >> excellent. when i was 4, my favorite show was scooby doo, too. >> ridiculously watchdog group politifact did diligent digging there. here's stephen colbert with the result. >> it turns out christie was full of scooby doo doo. and he was exposed by pulitzer prize winning watchdog group politifact who reported given the governor's birth date and the official premiere date of scooby doo, where are you, christie would have been 7 years old, not 4, if he watched the show's first episode. christie was clearly lying about watching scooby doo when he was 4.

he would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids. >> i give christie far more than a free pass for that one. finally, this congressional race down in south carolina between mark sanford and his democratic challenger elizabeth colbert busch is a piece of work. the action today, sanford took to the streets to protest his opponent's decision to only participate in one debate by putting on a debate of his own. sanford stood on a street corner debating, if you will, this cardboard cutout of nancy pelosi. a spokesman for colbert busch said elizabeth colbert busch is spending her time with real people who support her campaign. a recent ppp poll showed sanford trailing colbert bush by nine percentage points. a preview of upcoming attractions politically. here they are. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness? by the armful? by the barrelful?

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hello, everybody. here's what's happening. president obama is on his way to texas where he'll attend a fund-raiser and the dedication of the bush museum and library. he's also attend a memorial of the deadly fertilizer blast. vice president biden spoke earlier at a memorial for the m.i.t. officer slain in the boston bombing suspects. now it's back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." former secretary of state hillary clinton completed step one of her new life. rest. now she's into step two.

speeches. tonight she makes her debut in the speaking world with a private event in dallas. while no one thinks she'll tackle the 2016 question yet, it will be on the minds of everyone in that room. certainly during the q & a. i've got two msnbc political analysts with me tonight. the great howard fineman is editorial director for ""the huffington post". that's just the beginning. joan walsh, her book "what's the matter with white people?" personally offends me but that's all right. that's now cheaper, but you get a smaller piece of that. a worthy addition, i'm sure. let me go to the question of hillary clinton. it seems to me if these people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to hear these people speak, the question period is always part of the money. that's part of the gate. won't those people in the audience, whoever they are, they're in the real estate business or housing business i

guess today, aren't they going to ask what are you up to? what are you doing? >> absolutely, chris. they're going to want to know. there are going to be people in the audience, even though we're not allowed to be there, who are going to be pressing that question. she's always got a deft answer. i don't think her being out there really means anything about her intentions. she always said she intended to speak, she intended to write. she didn't decide to join a cloister or go away, you know, on a long trip. this is part of what she said she'd be doing. but, you know, i'm sure she's going to be grilled by the people there. it's the top -- it's the top of the -- >> what would be your question as a craftsman and someone who has the trade craft? would it be what would stop you from running? how would you frame it if you were in the audience and allowed in tonight? >> if i were allowed in i would probably say, you know, millions of american women want to see the first woman president. you have the best chance of making their dream come true. how do you feel about that? how will you resist the pressure and the call of history to make that run again and make it happen? >> hmm. that's an advocacy position we just heard. but it's a strong one.

i would ask what would stop you? because i can't think of what the answer would be. you have all the marbles, you have all the tickets as politicians say, howard. you have the name id, the popularity approval. look at this number. this is our latest favorability in the new gallup poll. she's at 64%. not surprisingly, nine in ten democrats give her a favorable rating. that's a lot higher than vice president joe biden nearly split at 45/42. that's a pretty good number to be at. >> well -- >> it'll come down a bit when she runs. >> i'm sure it wouldn't work, but i would try what joan would try, which is the sort of guilt route. in other words, as i said the other week when i was here talking about hillary, i saw hillary at the vital voices annual event here which is to promote the role of women around the world, women in leadership roles. and i would -- i would ask her, how could you not? given those people, given that you spent your whole life trying to make sure that women have

equal opportunity to lead, and you with such a high favorable rating, you with such a base in the country, you with a husband who was a president, you who have seen things so up close, you who have been senator, how could you not do it? >> if you can stand up there in front of 2,000 people or some huge crowd, we've all had a shot at this, a big crowd out there, it takes such guts to give a powerful speech about what you think of the world. if you can do that, you can run for president. that's what's hardest about running. >> i also think she's learned a lot of lessons about 2008 which is not to run as an incumbent. not to sit in your sun room and say i'll take it. >> the sun room line was interesting. i read that today. >> get out there and earn it. she's going to travel the country, make a lot of money but also see a lot of people. >> joan, do you think it's important for her to be visible? i think you mentioned that a minute ago. some people have said, i've been reading it all today getting ready, they think if she does

fade, becomes a bit of a cloistered life, if she does become a reader or stays out in the sun room or whatever it is, people like martin o'malley of maryland will get a couple steps toward her. they'll never catch her, probably. and maybe andrew cuomo or someone or the vice president. the vice president is running every day of the week by nature of his job. >> right. >> do you think she really ran a risk in not going public giving these speeches? >> well, you know, i think she's got such a high profile, chris. but she's going to have to get out there. and she will be out there making much more public speeches. we will see her. we will hear from her. it's also a -- there's a weird interval here where we have a president. he's doing mostly a great job. for her to be running for his position, i don't know. there's something a little bit unseemly for her to just come right out and take her political place right now. >> i agree. by the way, i know one way she can guarantee to win the nomination, as if there's any doubt. have the opponents attack her. on the republican side. the minute they attack hillary clinton, she is the nominee. to another possible 2016 contender, jeb bush. he, too, was in dallas today with a speaking event in advance of his brother's library opening tomorrow. in an interview with c-span's steve scully, former president

george w. bush said what his advice would be to his brother jeb if he chooses to enter the presidential race. quote, my first advice is run. he's probably not going to take it. he may decide to run but i'm not saying, you ought to run. my advice would be surround yourself with good people. create an environment in which they don't feel like they need to walk in and pander with you but they can walk in and give you their frank opinions. i tell people in audiences, a key component of a leader is someone who understands what he doesn't know and then finds people and places them on a team who do know what he doesn't know. >> all i can think of is the danger in that recommendation, howard. because he was surrounded by well read intellectual -- what we used to call egghead people. the neocons who knew so much more about foreign policy than him but had an agenda. >> on the topic of george w.

bush, the problem with that formulation is that he didn't know what he didn't know. george w. was a profoundly incurious guy. he was almost proud of his lack of curiosity. so he couldn't balance and evaluate the expertise that was thrown at him by those people that he had around him. that was the fundamental -- that was the fundamental flaw of george w. bush's presidency. i know jeb also. and i think jeb is not that kind of guy. i think jeb is much more on the -- on the muscle to use a horse racing term. >> he knows what he knows. >> he knows what he knows. >> education. >> yeah. and he is curious. and he's broad gauged. i'll tell you what, if mario -- if marco rubio does not run, jeb almost has to run. because he's the only other major figure in the party who can reach out to hispanics. >> wouldn't it be a sad thing to recycle a bush? for the republican party, the one silver lining of last year, we were told, was that they had such a deep bench. whether it was chris christie or paul ryan or marco rubio or rand

paul. to recycle a bush seems like a backwards losing -- >> all i want them to do is run somebody i can imagine voting for. anyway, thank you very much, howard fineman. thank you, joan walsh. up next, on the eve of the opening of the george w. bush presidential library, we're going to be down there tomorrow, he says his relationship with dick cheney is cordial. what do you see in that? what a strange thing to say about a guy you worked with for eight years. cordial? what went on between these two. this is "hardball," the place for politics. see, i figured low testosterone would decrease my sex drive... but when i started losing energy and became moody... that's when i had an honest conversation with my doctor. we discussed all the symptoms... then he gave me some blood tests. showed it was low t. that's it. it was a number -- not just me. [ male announcer ] today, men with low t have androgel 1.62% (testosterone gel). the #1 prescribed topical testosterone replacement therapy, increases testosterone when used daily. women and children should avoid contact with application sites.

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so what's behind dick cheney and george bush's relationship? "hardball" back after this. [ agent smith ] i've found software that intrigues me. it appears it's an agent of good. ge has wired their medical hardware with innovative software to be in many places at the same time. using data to connect patients to software, to nurses to the right people and machines. ♪ helping hospitals treat people even better, while dramatically reducing waiting time. now a waiting room is just a room. [ telephone ringing ] [ static warbles ] [ beeping ] red or blue?

♪ we're back. it's no secret that george w. bush and dick cheney had a strained relationship during w.'s second term. especially after bush filed cheney's long term pal and mentor, donald rumsfeld. now on the eve of the opening bush presidential library, the bush/cheney relationship is still frosty. here's what the president said

about his relationship with cheney in an interview with steve skully. >> it's been cordial. but he lives in washington and we live in dallas. i people i work with much, and it's kind of sad. >> david corn is the bureau chief of mother jones and msnbc political analyst. co-author of "bush's brain." wayne, is the phone system broken down in dallas? >> no, never heard of skype. he's never heard of skype. >> is there a real technical reason you live in bornia, otherwise known as texas. what's this excuse, what do you make of this overall? >> i make exactly what you already said, he's got three problems here, cheney didn't give him good advice, and you can go through all that. >> thank you. >> the second thing is that cheney -- bush has always been sensitive, even though he claims

he's not been -- sensitive of the idea someone around him has run in the works, that he always needs adult supervision. i remember one day on the lawn of the governor's mansion when george bush was governor for an event and a couple of us were talking to carl rove, bush came out, he looked at us, scowled and said, you know, when the rove news conference is over, maybe i'll do mine. he was very sensitive, very sensitive to the idea there was a bush's brain, there was a dick cheney running the white house and so forth. i don't know if he believed that. i know david has written extensively about that, but it's something that's always really bothered him. of course, at the very end there, cheney's hard push on scooter libby ruined things. >> it began much earlier after he realized he had been snuckered on iraq. >> the thing about bush, it's hard to know how self reflective he is, even when you look at his

paintings and if he would allow himself to believe he was snuckered. >> let's do this like paint by numbers, you hire dick cheney to come and run your vice presidential selection team and somehow you end up at the bottom of the pile with nobody else qualified and you end up with dick cheney. do you somewhere during the time you've thought about that, that's 12 years ago, do you think during the past 12 years he thought, wait a minute, maybe that was a fix? >> i wonder. when he gave the interview last week -- >> the angler. >> he said again and again he's comfortable who he is, he has no regrets, but the bottom line here, as cordial as the relationship may be, which i think does mean frosty, no matter how much bush distances himself from dick cheney, the two will forever share a cobyline on the iraq war and other misdeeds. whatever's happening with him now, they are tied together, unlike any president and vice president in our history. >> let me go back to this

scooter libby job. i respect one thing about scooter libby, his incredible loyalty. he's never come out and said the boss told me to do all this, but the boss, in this case dick cheney, said it. we're leaving a soldier on the field. scooty libby gave up his law practice and everything to go serve cheney and the country in his way and he was doing stuff for cheney. he was talking to judy miller, everybody, for cheney. but at the time, cheney stepped back and acted like he had nothing to do with it. now cheney's saying he's a soldier for us. which is it, is he a soldier or outlaw? >> don't forget he lied for dick cheney. >> how can he say it both ways, he wasn't doing our job for us, yet he died as a soldier on the field. your thoughts. why is he keeping the secret, what cheney told him to do? >> part of the key here is to look at it from cheney's point of view and bush's point of

view. cheney is convinced scooter libby deserved the pardon because he was a soldier on the field, but george bush's point of view saw a vice president at the end of his eight-year tenure elbowing him saying come on, law be damned, let's give us this guy a pardon. it was exactly the kind of thing bush himself found repulsive in the case of other presidents, including bill clinton, when he gave some pardons. bush thought as a matter of principle this is something i don't like. this is a clash where one guy was the decider, it was george bush. >> i got an explanation, never told him honestly. he might have considered him a soldier and not a felon. thank you, wayne slater, thank you, david corn. i'll be anchoring coverage of the george w. bush presidential library tomorrow all day from dallas. it all begins tomorrow morning at 11:00 eastern, that will be 10:00 central. we'll be up early. the flex in...

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let me finish here. george w. bush, you know when your parents told you to spend your time with the right people, don't go hanging out with the bad ones, remember that? someone should have told this to george w. bush. as a candidate for president he said something very good about foreign policy, he said he wanted to see more humility, you know, know your limits, don't push people around. i thought he was on to something, then he let dick cheney on to his team. cheney saw his chance and got

himself picked. didn't bush see this happening, or better yet, how many times must he have looked backward over these 12 years and say how did i let him get that one over on me? this was his father's predicament after he picked dan quayle. is this a problem specific to the bush family? is coming to the presidency through their high-born status some american version of a divine right? therefore, you can never admit you're wrong, because that would mean abdicating the whole divine right thing, the notion you were born to the ruling class in the first place. it's the best i could come up with. why on earth using common sense hasn't george w. bush come to the basic reckoning that dick cheney pulled the wool over him time after time, picking rumsfeld, moving him into a war that bore no relation to 9/11?

i have a healthy suspicion that the former president knows precisely what i'm talking about right now, yet to admit that dick cheney was, yes, the joker in the deck, would bring down his whole house of cards. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes, and thank you for joining us tonight. i want to begin tonight telling you a story. it's an incredible story. when i heard the details, i thought it too incredible to be real, but it is real. it's about a young muslim man who came to the united states before he was grown who came to assimilate quickly and seamlessly to american life, he made american friends and came to celebrate american holidays and high school spos